Why do all Professionals want to come to Canada?
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Posted on: 21-10-04 18:20:18
Quote:
Orginally posted by crenshaw
I used the deficient English observation with people that were bitter about Canada, made sweeping generalizations that suggested that ALL Canadian immigrants lift boxes, but couldn’t frame 2 correct sentences in English at a time. The tone used was aggressive at times, I believed that was warranted for me to make my point.
Would indeed appreciate if you could provide me with links to some of those posts. Even so, I think the use of the term 'ALL' is an exagerration and is indeed understood by all as such. I am quite sure, no one genuinly means it, nor does any one literally believe that ALL, meaning each and every immigrant, lifts boxes!!
I hope you do realize that just as the world look rosy, cheerful and full of hope to the person who has been "successful", it looks just as colourless, depressing and hopeless to those who have tried but have not found what they came here for. Quite sure, you ridiculing them is not going to help them.
Quote:
Orginally posted by crenshaw
Encouraging people to immigrate – Haven’t explicitly done that.
Explicitly no! I agree, no one does that "explicitly" for the simple reason that no one wants to specifically held accountable in affair where his advice ends up such that he has the blood of some family on his hands, if you know what I mean.
It is the "implicit", lurking, inferential communication and signals that emanate from your posts that can prove fatal for someone.
Quote:
Orginally posted by crenshaw
I have merely tried to suggest that Canada is not a hell-hole as is sometimes made out to be, by certain posters on this website.
You are a lucky man crenshaw, in that you are on the other side of the aisle. I am sure you would have a very similar opinion had you not been so lucky and belonged to this group for whom Canada has in fact turned out to be a "hell-hole".
Quote:
Orginally posted by crenshaw
In fact in several (of my) posts you would notice comments like “a lot of immigrants do not find jobs”.
That is almost a true statement crenshaw except that to make it valid, it needs just a little tweak and that is to change the "a lot" to "most". Then it would be more accurate and correct, don't you think? So it should read as "most immigrants do not find jobs”.
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Diogenes
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The Cynic
Diogenes,
Since you claim to be cynic who takes no sides, how about you go ahead and make similar comments about people who attack Crenshaw personally? Would throw in some much needed balance. Do you need links to these posts?
Quote:
That is almost a true statement crenshaw except that to make it valid, it needs just a little tweak and that is to change the "a lot" to "most". Then it would be more accurate and correct, don't you think? So it should read as "most immigrants do not find jobs”.
How do you know this? Since "most" can traverse a pretty significant range, can we start putting numbers? Do you agree with those who say 80% of the immigrants to Canada don't find jobs? And when you say don't find jobs, do you mean they don't find jobs forever or for a certain period of time?
Would be intersting to know where you'd put Mr X who came here, struggled with labour jobs for about 6 months before landing a job that he wanted. Is he a couldn't-find-job or found-a-job?
I'm not condoning Crenshaw's attacks on someone's English, however you do have one less hurdle to clear in the interview process if you speak decent English, don't you think?
And all the talk about East European immigrants finding jobs here in a jiffy while desis slog it out at factories is utter nonsense. There are two russian IT guys where I work who struggled just as much before they landed IT jobs. One guy worked at gas station for 2 years (during which time he did some courses and certified himself). The other guy worked at one of the company branches as a shipper for close to 4 years. And just recently got shifted to the IT department. So the stories of conspiracies against desis are pure fiction, many others struggle too.
Is the system perfect? Absolutely not. Can it be improved? Certainly. But it will not come about by highlighting only stories of struggle and ignoring the thousands of immigrants who are doing quite well for themselves. You have to study the deficiencies of the system while acknowledging the fact that there may be some shortcomings in those who find fault with the system too.
Take an arbitrary number, say X% of desi immigrants here are struggling currently. And say all X% have super qualifications. Will you tell me that all of them are perfect individuals who have nothing to improve upon and that it is only the system that is to blame for their perils?
Change needs to come about on both sides of the coin. I don't think taking exception to the fantastic notion that 80% of immigrants work at Tim Horton's is belittling struggles of any immigrants. It is just an effort to present an accurate picture. And in the accurate picture, a LOT of immigrants are doing quite well here and are quite happy with their lives.
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Are you there?
Quote:
Orginally posted by BlueLobster
Since you claim to be cynic who takes no sides, how about you go ahead and make similar comments about people who attack Crenshaw personally?
In as far as I can remember, the "attacks" on crenshaw were perhaps in retaliation and not the "first stone". An of course, if there have been unwarranted personal attacks by anyone, they should be condemned.
Quote:
Orginally posted by DiogenestheCynic
So it should read as "most immigrants do not find jobs”.
Quote:
Orginally posted by BlueLobster
How do you know this? Since "most" can traverse a pretty significant range, can we start putting numbers?
Well, first I will just take the help of Mr Webster to define " most" and then show how it fits into what I have said. As per Webster's "most" is defined in the context of our discussion as:
- the majority of <most people>.
Going back to Webster's again to understand what is meant by majority we find it defined in the context of our discussion as:
-a number greater than half of a total.
Ok, so now we all understand what we mean by "most". Means "greater than half the population".
So we can see, when using the term "most" I have already "put a number " by implication and that is >50%!
Quote:
Orginally posted by BlueLobster
Do you agree with those who say 80% of the immigrants to Canada don't find jobs?
No I don't! In fact I am quite sure almost 100% find jobs! I don't imagine any more than a few of desi immigrants live on social welfare, and that too I am saying more for the sake of argumentive standards of not making absolute statements.
In the context of our discussion here, I am talking about a subset of the population of desi immgrants - those that are educated(graduates and above), have professional skills that had value back in their home country, and have experience that was market worthy back home. The rest are excluded! From within this subset, almost all get jobs, but not jobs that are commensurate with their qualification and experience.
Quote:
Orginally posted by BlueLobster
And when you say don't find jobs, do you mean they don't find jobs forever or for a certain period of time?
I don't think they continue to do labour jobs forever. They do eventually find other avenues. Some re-educate, some acquire other skills, some just move up in the organization wher they started at the entry level. But the transition is quite long and painful for many.
Quote:
Orginally posted by BlueLobster
Would be intersting to know where you'd put Mr X who came here, struggled with labour jobs for about 6 months before landing a job that he wanted. Is he a couldn't-find-job or found-a-job?
I think I have already answered this question.
Quote:
Orginally posted by BlueLobster
I'm not condoning Crenshaw's attacks on someone's English, however you do have one less hurdle to clear in the interview process if you speak decent English, don't you think?
Agreed. And if you would read my post to crensahw, I have unambiguosly suggested that in case crenshaw, or anyone for that matter, wants to point out mistakes and help someone with his writing skills, by all means please do so by PMs. My point is only that ridiculing someone publicly for his language or spelling mistakes is not exactly a healthy attitude.
Quote:
Orginally posted by BlueLobster
Change needs to come about on both sides of the coin. I don't think taking exception to the fantastic notion that 80% of immigrants work at Tim Horton's is belittling struggles of any immigrants. It is just an effort to present an accurate picture. And in the accurate picture, a LOT of immigrants are doing quite well here and are quite happy with their lives.
All this applies fully to those who have already come here and are struggling. Of course inspire them, encourage them, tell them stories of success, help them get their lives and career back on tracks. My point is that the status of someone who has already immigrated and IS in Canada, the true Canadian Desi, is vastly different from someone who is yet only a Desi! The two have to be treated very very differently.
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Diogenes
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The Cynic
Good Morning and a big hi to all ,
Personally I feel that ins trend of ridiculing others on their langauage or trying to supress them by mocking gibing is unhealthy v/s providing logical arguments politely . Hot words /statements tend to flare up the senses .I aint the only one to observe this .
BL , definitely no1 has first provoked Crenshaw but he seems to be having a tendency to do so with whoever disagrees with him . However I appreciate that as some ppl have a forceful attitude . But force cant change facts just temporarily distort them .
Crenshaw ,
Cud u explain how did u read Jake's post differently from me when he talks abt assuming 7/10 as seemingly apt nos .
Raising your voice doesnt meanyou can supress facts . You may be very \"successful\" by your own rights .That doesnt belittle others. If something has worked for you and not worked for 10 others who is the rule and who is the exception . If you want statistics read this whole forum with regards expereiences from day one .You interpreted my sample survey of 20 people as being unscientific and yet quote your own example as a "standard" . Double standards eh?
To quote you --- if its agreed that a Foreign experince may bring diverse knowldge and technical knowhow ---- then why do they underplay this foreign experience and ask for Canadian ?? Either they dont have suitable jobs or need people at the low level which was suggested by the ralier conspiracy theory. Or most probaly are looking at Immigrants to bring in wealth and talent and develop the unpopulated place to its full potential .
I would nt comment on others Graduation levels but by my knowledge Indian Engineers /CAs /Doctors by no means deserve to do floor level , labor , Clerical jobs . And if this is the trend then this certainly is alarming . Coz they were screened for their professions and education.
But I wonder would an IIT Grad / REC Grad be recognised in the US ?? I think yes coz they are job specific . Why isnt the same education recognised in Canada ??
Five years is a long period for the Canadian Employers to understand the worth of Indian qualifications and expereince and if they refuse to do so still then they are probably using it as a pretext .
I respect Chandresh highly on this forum . Both professionally and personally . He is a person who has demonstrated his professional knowledge & expereince on one hand and his zeal and conviction on the other . His personality in all aspects is 'Canadian friendly' . I feel in India the economy would absorb him readily . He is here for some years now . Is it that the GTA economy doesnt have senior positions for such professionals implying that it is either nascent or underdeveloped ??
BOTTOMLINE
Seniors ----- Is it true that approx 60% to 70 % desi Engineers are doing mediocre jobs in the first 2 years ? Revealing realities thus unbiasedly would be favoring the prospectives either way . I second wisernow's request for a repoll as people are more engrossed and serious now .This may be a turnaround .
Manasvi .
Quote:
Orginally posted by Manasvi
Personally I feel that ins trend of ridiculing others on their langauage or trying to supress them by mocking gibing is unhealthy v/s providing logical arguments politely . Hot words /statements tend to flare up the senses .I aint the only one to observe this .
My arguments have been made forcefully, I have had to be impolite where it was warranted
Quote:
Orginally posted by Manasvi
BL , definitely no1 has first provoked Crenshaw but he seems to be having a tendency to do so with whoever disagrees with him . However I appreciate that as some ppl have a forceful attitude . But force cant change facts just blind them .
This may be unintentional but the way you guys provoke people like me by following a pattern. One guy comes out and says Crenshaw must be unemployed or says share your experiences, none of the successful people is sharing their experiences on this forum. When I come out and do that another of the negative posters picks and says that "you are making your own example as standard for everyone".
Quote:
Orginally posted by Manasvi
Cud u explain how did u read Jake's post differently from mine when he talks abt assuming 7/10 as seemingly apt nos .
Incidentally, Jake did make a post to the effect that he didn't necessarily think that the 7/10 was right, his post was deleted when the website had problems on Friday (therefore you will see a post from BL saying that he didn't know where Jake's post had gotten to).
Quote:
Orginally posted by Manasvi
Raising your voice doesnt meanyou can supress facts . You may be very \"successful\" by your own rights .That doesnt belittle others. If something has worked for you and not worked for 10 others who is the rule and who is the exception . You termed my sample survey of 20 people as being unrealistic and yet quote your own example as a "standard" . Double standards eh?
Raising voice? Do I use CAPS in all of my discussions? Or do you hear me somehow.......maybe you 'hear voices'.
When did I quote my own example as standard. Show me one post where I have said that my example is standard. However, I have put it forward as an example against generalizations.
Quote:
Orginally posted by Manasvi
To quote you --- if its agreed that a Foreign experince may bring diverse knowldge and technical knowhow ---- then why do they underplay this foreign experience and ask for Canadian ?? Either they dont have suitable jobs or need people at the low level which was suggested by the ralier conspiracy theory. Or most probaly are looking at Immigrants to bring in wealth and talent and develop the unpopulated place to its full potential .
Individual reasons may be different for asking for Canadian experience. I can't go into the minds of Canadian employers and try to figure out why they ask specifically ask for Canadian experience. However, I do believe that if a job applicant would be better off if he prepares well and focusses on his positives (eg diversity or skills that are not available in the local population) during the course of the interview in order to be able to counter the Canadian experience argument.
Quote:
Orginally posted by Manasvi
I would nt comment on others Graduation levels but by my knowledge Indian Engineers /CAs /Doctors by no means deserve to do floor level , labor , Clerical jobs . And if this is the trend then this certainly is alarming . Coz they were screened for their professions and education.
They certainly don't. However, we live in a democracy, the government cannot take these immigrants and force prospective employers to hire them. The job applicant has to present his skills appropriately for a prospective employer to hire him. Sadly a lot of South Asian immigrants lose out on this.
Quote:
Orginally posted by Manasvi
But I wonder would an IIT Grad / REC Grad be recognised in the US ?? I think yes coz they are job specific . Why isnt the same education recognised in Canada ??
If there is an IIT / REC grad sitting unemployed in Canada, he's free to go across the border to the US to look for a job. If he's still unemployed in Canada, it means no one is willing to employ him in the US either.
Quote:
Orginally posted by Manasvi
Five years is a long period for the Canadian Employers to understand the worth of Indian qualifications and expereince and if they refuse to do so still then they are probably using it as a pretext .
Where did you come up with five years?
Quote:
Orginally posted by Manasvi
I respect Chandresh highly on this forum . Both professionally and personally . He is a person who has demonstrated his professional knowledge & expereince on one hand and his zeal and conviction on the other . His personality in all aspects is 'Canadian friendly' . I feel in India the economy would absorb him readily . He is here for some years now . Is it that the GTA economy doesnt have senior positions for such professionals implying that it is either nascent or underdeveloped ??
Are you trying to use Chandresh as a generalization for all professionals?
How do you know so much about Chandres personally? Did you meet him on your one week trip to Canada?
Nascent or underdeveloped? - a country that has a per capita income of US $ 30k!!!
Quote:
Orginally posted by Manasvi
BOTTOMLINE
Seniors ----- Is it true that approx 60% to 70 % desi Engineers are doing mediocre jobs in the first 2 years ? revealing realities unbiasedly would be favoring the prospectives either way . I second wisernow's request for a repoll as people are more engrossed and serious now .This may be a turnaround .
When did Wisernow suggest a repoll?
Apparently poll results are biased the moment they do not suit you!
My friend Crenshaw,
You tend to pick selective words sentences and leave the substance.
What says that a USD 30K /capita income country can t be nascent / underdeveloped .........?? I have seen countries having a much higher per capita income and still being nascent . Take Qatar for instance .
Do I have to meet Chandresh "personally" to personally admire him ??When I say I admire Chandresh professionally and personally I mean through the 100 s of posts I ve read from him .
05 years came from your statement regarding recession and more from the fact that Canadian Imigration has picked up from 99 onwards .
And yes Wisernow has suggested a repoll . I wonder why are you against it ???
Quote:
Orginally posted by wisernow
Suggestion : Why not conduct a poll on this board itself and get a live feedback from members of the board! Modify the questions to make them more general e.g when the post mentions "80% of professionals in Canada work at Tim Horton’s" I think it more of a general way of saying that 80% of people are working at wage levels equivalent to that earned at Tim Horton's.
Could the mods/admins set up a poll on some of these issues?
Manasvi.
Quote:
Orginally posted by Manasvi
My friend Crenshaw,
You tend to pick selective words sentences and leave the substance.
Look who's talking! You quoted Wisernow in your post. However, you left out the part where he says he could not find the previous polls and thought that they had been taken off!
Quote:
Orginally posted by Manasvi
What says that a USD 30K /capita income country can t be nascent / underdeveloped .........?? I have seen countries having a much higher per capita income and still being nascent . Take Qatar for instance .
Qatar has a much higher per capita income than Canada? You might want to check your facts. Also remember that Qatar found gas during the 1990s.
Quote:
Orginally posted by Manasvi
Do I have to meet Chandresh "personally" to personally admire him ??When I say I admire Chandresh professionally and personally I mean through the 100 s of posts I ve read from him .
You know so much about someone 'personally' without having met him! Good for you!
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Orginally posted by Manasvi
05 years came from your statement regarding recession and more from the fact that Canadian Imigration has picked up from 99 onwards .
What does the recession have to do with recognition of qualifications?
Canadian immigration policies have been in existence for decades!
Quote:
Orginally posted by Manasvi
And yes Wisernow has suggested a repoll .
He suggested a poll (not a repoll) because he could not find the results to the existing poll and thought that they had been taken off.
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