DAY OF SHAME!

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Desi in Alberta
Member since: Oct 02

Posts: 247
Location: AB
Post ID: #PID

Posted on: 26-05-04 18:54:37

(1) I did not understand your point – what is your specific issue between science and religion. Please provide specific example.

(2) Please let me know the exact verse of Qur’an you are referring to. Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) never used force to convert people to Islam. Please don’t take people’s behaviour from history (moghals or even crusaders) as teachings of Qur’an or Bible. By the way, Qur'an instructs the Muslims to believe in Bible and Torah.

(3) If Netaji Bose created more injustice to fight injustice then it did not fall into the definition of Jihad. There are many types of Jihad ("struggle" is a very loose meaning of the word) – going on a pilgrimage is jihad, trying to avoid using bad language is jihad, trying to find a job is jihad, asking for your rights is jihad, working hard to finish your work is jihad…Again, fighting injustice should not create more injustice.

(4) Well said. Just want to add again that “all life is from the Supreme Lord and He has promised to provide sustenance”.

(5) Thanks for the link – the Arab in the news does not represent all 1billion+ Muslims of the world. There are specific conditions to be met (according to Qur'an) before you can marry more than one woman.

(6) Kafir is a person who does not believe in the concept of monotheism or oneness of Lord. Kafirs will be subjected to the punishment of hellfire forever.

(7) Yes, Qur’an has to be followed without exceptions at all times including 21st century and beyond. I have not come across mention of death by stoning in Qur’an but a death is a death – stoning, lethal injection, gun shot, electrocution or hanging. Don’t you agree that a convicted criminal needs to be punished? If someone was innocent and was subjected to punishment then it’s a different matter we are talking about.

(8) What do you mean by progressing? Ignoring the word of the Creator which is valid till the end of time? You mentioned Sufism – all I can say is it requires a very different, much longer conversation.

It appears that out of 5000+ members at this site only 2 are interested in talking about these issues!!! COME ON HAVE YOUR SAY CANADIANDESIS!!!

Ottawa_Nerd
Member since: Jan 04

Posts: 1754
Location: Ottawa (Now in Bangalore)
Post ID: #PID

Posted on: 27-05-04 01:01:47

Dear DIA..
You need a Jihadi Hater to engage in a conversation.. I suppose the rest of the folks are :- "Ghar ke ander chupe hue hain" ... (being politically correct )

So what you are saying is that Ppl who do not believe in a "Monoethist" religion will burn in hell ? Isnt that a subtle way of saying.."You are either with us or you will burn in hell...the assimilistic properties" ? Umm doesnt this explain what led to the rise of the "Hindu fundamentalist" BJP in India ?.. I am referring to Sura 9:29 ..and I guess this was the verse my friend also was referring to.
In contrast I would suggest you cite me instances from Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism (the Eastern religions), that cite such specific cases ?..
There may be verious interpretations of this verse, but I am quoting one from this site
http://www.submission.org/suras/sura9.htm or
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.001
"... [9:29] You shall fight back against those who do not believe in GOD, nor in the Last Day, nor do they prohibit what GOD and His messenger have prohibited, nor do they abide by the religion of truth - among those who received the scripture - until they pay the due tax, willingly or unwillingly."

This verse is also interesting (from the same site)
"..[9:5] Once the Sacred Months are past, (and they refuse to make peace) you may kill the idol worshipers when you encounter them, punish them, and resist every move they make. If they repent and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), you shall let them go. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful. "

Religion of truth being Islam and God being Allah... Peace being accepting Islam as the one religion...I would suggest others to read a few verses above and below this verse and then you can understand what I am referring to.

I am not a believer of the death penalty.. I believe that the death penalty is an easy escape from the punishment. In order to punish someone you should make that person enduer the pain, and hardships throughout his/her natural life.. By killing him/her you are not "reforming" a person

Quran was written in the 1st Millenium. The social structure and population levels were different. Shouldnt Islam be more in "context" rather than absolute ? i.e Social science, Psychological behaviour.. While the moral aspects of Quran should be adhered (which I suppose is present in every religion), I am concerned abt social aspects. Like Abstinenance vs Contraceptives.. IF a country like Malaysia can do it and do it successfully why cant India (& Indian Muslims)..

"..Figting injustice should not create more injustice.." What context are you speaking this from ? From an Indian context more injustices are being created. From a Pakistani context there is no injustice.. its struggle/liberation..

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Desi in Alberta
Member since: Oct 02

Posts: 247
Location: AB
Post ID: #PID

Posted on: 27-05-04 10:06:45

Enemies who torture you, rape your wife/daughter/mother in front of you and kill you, shouldn’t they be treated like - well, enemies! Bible says “an eye for an eye”, Qur’an agrees. Sections 9:5 and 9:29 refer to one such situation – read the whole chapter and understand the extremely difficult circumstances Muslims were facing at that time. Remember, these orders to deal with the enemies were given by Allah.

Death penalty speeds up the criminal’s journey to hell – its not an easy escape. Do you think that after you die in this world that will be the end of story? What will happen to your soul? Who gave you the birth first time? He will give you birth again in the hereafter.

I say again that “all life is from Lord”. Contraception or anything else, Allah’s plan will not fail.

I have said enough about “fighting injustice” – please read my previous posts.

mercury6
Member since: Jan 04

Posts: 2025
Location: State of Denial
Post ID: #PID

Posted on: 27-05-04 11:54:48

Bible also says "turn the other cheek".

I am just joiking...please ignore my post.

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I once made a mistake, but I was wrong about it.

Desi in Alberta
Member since: Oct 02

Posts: 247
Location: AB
Post ID: #PID

Posted on: 27-05-04 12:08:05

I really appreciate that! This discussion has been too serious so far with talk of death and hellfire!!! We certainly need some happiness! Needless to say that happiness comes from following the commandments of your Lord. A good start would be the 10 commandments which were revealed to the Holy Prophet Moses.

Ottawa_Nerd
Member since: Jan 04

Posts: 1754
Location: Ottawa (Now in Bangalore)
Post ID: #PID

Posted on: 27-05-04 15:26:20

Quote:
Orginally posted by Desi in Alberta
read the whole chapter and understand the extremely difficult circumstances Muslims were facing at that time.

Aha DIA... Now this is where you are again contradicting your statements... Isnt that what I had stated ... "at that time" a.k.a context ? So if you say that you believe that this statement was made with respect to Muslims living in those times .. So by yuor own definition all such facts and instances dealing with "injustices" towards ppl were "context" based ..(i.e at that time ?)
If you can choose to ignore these statements from the Quran in the "context" of 21st century Living, why not other such things mentioned in the Quran ? Doesnt this prove that ppl are "selectively applying the Quran" in their lives ? If it were so then

".. (2) Please don?t take people?s behaviour from history (moghals or even crusaders) as teachings of Qur?an or Bible"...
and
".. (7) Yes, Qur?an has to be followed without exceptions at all times including 21st century and beyond. "

contradicting statements.

I again ask folks here, well versed in Eastern religions (aka Hinduism, Jainism, BUddhism, Sikhism, ) to pls cite any such instances where you have to kill/ force someone to pay "zakhat (tax}" if you follow a different religion.

Regarding injustices you have been speaking in metaphors. I am limiting my context to the India-Pakistan wars and the current terrorist activities of Pakistani terrorists in Kashmir ... I read your posts above and have not found any statements "SPECIFICALLY addressed to this"...

I wish to state my views on "An eye for an eye".."To turn the other cheek"

Gandhi ("the devil quoting the scriptures..me da devil here

stated that " an eye for an eye makes the world blind".. Again this was in context. He was able to make that statement as the British ( a bunch of self-serving moralistic group of ppl) were ruling India. It made sense. Had it been under the Germans (esp. under Hitler , the SS etc. etc.) this statement would not have made sense.

Surely if Jihadis attack me I cannot turn the other cheek. Neither do I want to indulge in wholesale "eye for an eye" (the best example being the Israeli-Palestenian conflict).. Gandhi's principle is valid if you have rulers who wish to be Civil... The British were, The Germans weren't. Similarly, with regards to the Kashmir conflit you cannot be civil with terrorists who have no qualms about "spreading injusticies in order to rectify a supposed injustice".

Ottawa_Nerd
Member since: Jan 04

Posts: 1754
Location: Ottawa (Now in Bangalore)
Post ID: #PID

Posted on: 27-05-04 15:32:42

Quote:
Orginally posted by mercury6

Bible also says "turn the other cheek".

I am just joiking...please ignore my post.

Here is the statement. In the words of Jesus / Hazrat Isaah
".."You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you." (Matthew 5:38-42, NIV) But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

"Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. (Luke 6:28-31. King James Version) "...

So in essence we have two opposite views in the Bible (if you consider it as a complete document).. Otherwise you have an old statmenet (made in the Old Testament) and a new statement (made in the new Testament)

Contributors: Ottawa_Nerd(25) Desi in Alberta(19) suryau(12) Jashan(11) BlueLobster(10) jake3d(10) mercury6(4) simplysouth(3) Pramod Chopra(3) Satesh(2) Timon(2) biomed(2) Chor_Per_Mor(2) SUDHISH(1) Simply South(1) wisernow(1) shri.Atal Bihari Bajpai(1) DesiTiger(1) rathi(1) tarantula(1) Quebecois(1)

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