I'd be the first to protest if Canada enforced the kinda stuff France is trying to pull.

The headscarf and the pagdi ban is a step backward. France usually prides itself on being a very liberal country, this flies in the face of that belief.

What are they trying to achieve with this, can anyone tell me?

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Are you there?

I totally agree with you bluelobster, this is exactly what an educated person with balanced thinking would suggest, but the fact remains that there are few people who hold personal grudges against people and extend those grudges against the whole community and dont leave a chance where they can take out this frustration provided its from a safe distance. They forget that calamity can strike anyone anywhere in any form.

Here I am not trying to justify what sikhs are doing as right or what french govt is doing as right. I was just saddened to see the way few friends grabbed the opportunity to ease their frustration.
Anyway, I dont want to discuss this at length as I know this will lead us nowhere and only increase the bitterness.
I really wish for the day when we, specially indians, raise ourselves above the shit of religion and faith before deciding between good or bad.

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Cheers,
JSethi

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Here I am not trying to justify what sikhs are doing as right or what french govt is doing as right. I was just saddened to see the way few friends grabbed the opportunity to ease their frustration.
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Hi JS

??????? frustrated

Maybe france really has a reason to do what it did.

They have enacted the thing and its being enforced too. Its bad that the sikhs have to undergo it- Why rub insult to injury.

Yes, the people have a right to show their discontent, which the sikhs did and mind you the French government did not disallow such protest, they let the protest take itself to the highest level possible, the world media and even this site, to you.

Both sides have their own stand- both may be correct.

Its a debatable issue whether a person should protest or not considering all things s/he has to gain/lose in an adopted country as in this case- but whatever they decide to do in their wisdom - yes it is the RIGHT ( a very human instinct) of the affected person to do protest in a peaceful manner.

By those standards what was being discussed a few days back- by way of non cooperation in Canada - is a valid option too- however seemingly correct options may not always be the right option keeping in mind the place and situation.

The government of France, for that matter any government has a clear way of distinction of its residents, if you comply with their rules- you are what is called a friend of the state. Should you choose to not abide by the regulation en force, it can choose to see you as an enemy of the state- for how long they are willing to let the loose rope run is up to how tolerant or democratic the country is - which we have France conduct itself in an exemplary manner.

While it would be futile to pass judgement on either the french govt or the sikhs - but a lot of sikhs also feel in the similar manner

I am bringing out below the opinions of few sikh gentlemen who too feel that the turban is not the only thing - the email addresses of the gentlemen are also shown alongside their opinions should you feel like conveying to them that they are wrong to feel in the manner as they do, you know more about their way of behaviour, that they are frustrated & are unaware of the calamity-
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Hi all,i`ve read a few of the passages written by you guys,there are alot of conflicts between turban wearers and non turban wearers.Before we start pointing fingers and telling each other what we are and what were not,answer some questions, How many of you get up 4o`clock in the morning and do PAAT? How many of you do CHARITY work? How many of you would eat food from the same bowl as a lower caste person? How many of you would let your son or daughter marry into a lower caste? So is it the turban that makes you a Sikh or is it your HEART?
-- permjit , pete.b@cableinet.co.uk

Turban is identification of sikh, sikh can be identified among lakhs of people, but the most disheartening thing is some people cutt their hairs and say they are jatt so they had right to do so , never able to understand what is the diffrence between jatt and sikh both are same i just know that sikhs who work in fields are called jatts, it doesnt mean they had right to cutt hairs, well another thing which is prevailing in our society (delhi)when a guy cutt his hair or trim his beard all sikh community scolds him and called him (mona) and etc, and their is no stoppage for gals they are free for waxing and threading nobody stop ladies for doing this why all this discrimination on ground of gals and guys we should be treated equally , see i am just telling u this what is happening in delhi , i dont have any objection with gal what i want is justice and equality
-- simer ,

dont wear a pug does that mean i dont follow the Gurus teachings? well i dont eat any kind of meat or drink or do drugs or smoke etc. but i dont wear a pug and i dont keep a moustace etc but still! u find \"sikhs\" wearin a pug but they eat meat and drink till they get drunk and go to bars and stuff. but are they more \"sikh\" than i am?because they have a pug and a bread? Doesnt make sense, when you die is God goin to look to see if you wore a pug or look to see wht deeds you have done??????? huh? think about that and then talk on this msg board! It is the deed that counts not the Turban! God is one God is Great!
-- jaskaran ,

It`s not completly nescciary for Sikhs to wear the turban, but those who don`t should realize that in some people`s eyes they will never be a true sikh, including god! And sikh is not the same thing as punjabi, so if u wanna say u r a punjabi jatt, that doesn`t mean u r a sikh too.-- baby ,

Does it really matter? Isn`t it what you believe inside that counts regardless of what you wear? Many people wear turbans who don`t follow the religion as they should.
-- Gum ,

sikhism is the one force which will never be abandoned...i have many sikh mates who are clean shaven / have cut hair whatever....but when it comes down to it if anyone rattles the lionz den trouble occurs...ok here is an example outside a gurdwara in southall a load of muslims came and started sayin stuff...racism and all dat...but no one from that gurdwara came out it was my freinds who were in the pub opposite called the glassy junction...so we protect the integrity of our religion...where were the singhs with the kirpans??? i am a singh myself but beleive we must change to adapt to live in the uk...obviously in a perfect world we would all be baptised and dat but thingz happen and it aint likely so we must try keepin our integrity in these foreign places we live....sorry if i have offended anyone...peace love and respect...sukh
-- sukh ,

TO ALL THE PEOPLE LIVING ABROAD AND STILL IN THEIR DENYING PHASE....THE NEXT GENERATION OF SIKHS WON`T BE WEARING TURBANS....THIS IS THE FACT AND ACCEPT IT....I DON`T THINK THERE IS ANY THING WRONG WITH IT....WHEN YOU ARE WALKING DOWN THE STREET WHY DO YOU WANT OTHERS PEOPLE TO KNOW THAT HEY !!! LOOK I`M WEARING A TURBAN I`M A SIKH....WHY CAN`T WE BE LIKE OTHERS ???....DOES APPEARENCE THAT IMPORTANT FOR THE SURVIVAL OF SIKHS ??? I DON`T THINK SO.....SORRY I MUST HAVE OFFENDED SOME PEOPLE BUT TRUTH ALWAYS HURTS.
-- HARRY ,

WOULD LIKE TO MAKE A COMMENT ON WEARING TURBAN.I CAME TO USA ABOUT FIVE YEARS BACK.I USED TO WEAR TURBAN AT THAT TIME.I LOST MY JOB AS A SENIOR NETWORK ADMINSITRATOR BECAUSE I WAS WEARING TURBAN IN A PLACE WHERE VERY HIGH PROFILE PEOPLE USED TO WORK.I CAN`T NAME THE COMPANY AS AFTER THREE YEARS OF WORKING IN COUPLE OF DIFFERNT PLACES I AM BACK HERE AGAIN.I WAS TOLD BY ONE OF MY COLLEGUES WHO HAPPENED TO BE A SIKH TO GET MY HAIR CUT AS THE PEOPLE DOESN`T LIKE TO SEE DIFFERENT LOOKING PEOPLE.I GOT MY HAIR CUT AND NOW I HAVE BEEN WORKING THERE FOR TWO YEARS NOW.I DON`T THINK IT IS A SIN TO GET A HAIR CUT IF YOU ARE COMFORTABLE WITH IT.
-- dale ,

totally agree with Montosh.I don`t think turban is important for the the identity of Sikhs.Like montosh has mentioned earlier there are lots of sikhs who wear turban and indulge in inappropriate activities.One of the general secretery of our Gurudwara wears kirpan and he is the worst person on this earth.He`s been with every hooker in the town and he still teaches about sikh religion.such people who does all this and still be a part of all the religious activities that goes on in the Gurudwara should be hanged.
-- herman ,

have a question with you all who disagree with me....is the sikh religion just about wearing turban or kirpan....what bout the person who wears all five K`s and still indulge in Evil things. I`ll give you real life example...I am a clean shaven jatt sikh settled abroad...my parents still are amritdhari sikhs...I do get into arguments about the whole thing several times...but what happened with me made me a real strong person for what my thoughts are...I go to gurudwara once or twice a month and I was in gurudwara one day and i met the president of gurudwara one day he atarted talking to me about religion...and told me how I`m a disgrace to the religion as I have cut hair and clean shaven....in fact he called me a LANDA SIKH....the same person who was giving me all the preaching and teachings.....Guess what where I saw him next....IN A STRIP CLUB with a hat on ....I never said i was a perfect person but this! ! person who is the president of the gurudwara who acts like he is the ONE should look at his own self before telling others...the day i saw him there was the last day i went to gurudwara...I can`t see a person doing Ardas in front of Sri Guru Granth Sahib and hundreds of people....it makes me sick to my stomuch....since then i decided to be a true sikh on my own inside....GOD give some piece of brains to all these people
-- Aman ,

When you`re dealing with truth, it can offend alot of people....but you can`t ignore the truth which is that the turban by itself doesn`t define anything....i think culture has more influence on a person the anything else even more than religion....that is why young people are more into punjabi music rather than religion...and more and more people now days are fed up with everything that goes on in gurudwara`s these days....it seems to me that everywhere you look....all you see is dirty politics...election is more important to these people than setting up good examples for young people....no wonder more and more young people now days would rather adapt \"black-culture\" or their music than their own....i think most young people are ashamed of people who don`t give a crap about anything...and besides..as i said culture and environment really have the greatest influence on people....i mean its really unpractical to follow the same culture and religion of Punjab...it is impossible...most of the old people that are really into religion and culture is because they grew up in that culture and environment....it is really important to remember that younger generation is not Indian...they`er americans...i mean naturally the importance of the Punjabi culture and religion is going to decrease in this country in the future years...its totally unrealistic to follow certain (punjabi) values and live in different country....and i`m so sick and tired of most indian parents who are responsible parents. all they care about is money..no wonder young people are smarter than their parents..most parents are living in denial...sad but true...they don`t know what their kids are doing outside the house....obviously they don`t care either as long as their kids act nice and normal in house...you can`t expect your kids to do the same things that you did 20 yrs ago when you were growing up....its a different world and different country....things have changed and they need to take sorta modren or western approach when you`re dealing with you kids...otherwise they`re gonna act all nice and normal in the house and do drugs and clubs outside....like it is right now...most parents do not know how many different boyfriends their daughters have...i`m not saying that its a bad thing but thats how things really are..you can deny it or face it...real responsibility starts from home by the parents....wearing a turban is not going to solve anything... some of you may find this letter rather irrational but like i said...when you`re dealing with the truth and it offends alot of people....but hey it is just the truth...you can deny it or face it and solve the problem...Daljeet
-- Ricky ,

The question in my opinion has two answers. It may not be as important for a non-khalsa baptised Sikh to wear a turban as it IS for someone that has been baptised into the Khalsa. The Khalsa is the visible identity of the Sikhs and its pure form. As such anyone baptised into it MUST be true to it. I don`t as yet wear a turban not due to culture differences, but because being baptised into the Khalsa would require discipline that I just don`t have at present. It’s not right to do it half-hearted, as some Sikhs do in Britain wearing turbans yet drink, shave and smoke. They still perceive themselves as `better` Sikhs? I will however wear a turban when I have the confidence and discipline to be baptised into the Khalsa.
-- Harmohn ,

don`t think turban is important for the survival of the sikh religion.I have been with so many Anritdhari sikhs who do all kinds of bad things you can`t imagine and then talk about religion like they are saints.I think it is all in the head if you wanna be an ideal sikh you can just follow the preaching our gurus taught and if you wear turban that doesn`t make you a better sikh than the one who doesn`t wear turban. Moreover if you are living abroad it is not a bad thing to mould yourself accordingly.
-- Aman ,

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Yes, there are others who oppose too as the gentleman below

Please excuse me if I say anything false or offensive. As far as I understand it, it would be inaccurate to say the turban is a `sikh` thing. People have been wearing pughs in Punjab for hundreds of years before Sikhi was even founded. Correct me if I am wrong, but to follow our religion, isn`t it only required to cover one`s head, whether it be with a turban, dastaar, parhna, rumaal or patka? The turban is more of a cultural thing than religious. The pugh is like the equivalent of a crown for Punjabis. It is a source of pride and honor. Sometimes you still hear pughs being referred to as `shaan` (pride). It is part of all of our Punjabiness, which we need to keep alive. One way to do this is to continue to wear turbans. Because you are not wearing a turban does not necessarily make you a bad sikh, it depends on your reasons: are you not wearing a turban in orderr to blend in better, or does it just not suit you, or are you just lazy? For the comments about `jatts` cutting their hair and still wearing turbans: it is not because they`re `faking` being sikh, it is because it is part of their culture as a Punjabi. Anyone who says that theyre cutting their hair and not going against sikhism is just ignorant (and it has nothing to do with being jatt, bhappa, tarkhan, or any caste). Anyways, for those getting teased because of your turban, just try to think on a bigger picture. You shouldn`t let a few racists change your way of life. Sometimes you will hvae to fight back (verbally), but stick with it, if not for yourself, do it for the next sardar kid who comes in, so he won`t have to put up with it. So to sum up, don`t let others change your way of life -- put on your crown, go out into the world, and be proud of what God made you.
-- MajhaJatt ,

Just a lot of opinions being expressed, pal. People even of the same community feel both ways.

Maybe you and me are not the real people to judge what is THE correct thing in this matter.

Quote:

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Orginally posted by BlueLobster

I'd be the first to protest if Canada enforced the kinda stuff France is trying to pull.

The headscarf and the pagdi ban is a step backward. France usually prides itself on being a very liberal country, this flies in the face of that belief.

What are they trying to achieve with this, can anyone tell me?

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I once made a mistake, but I was wrong about it.

Does SF do any work other than post on CD??
Wow! I think he has set the record for the longest posts, and I don't think it is going to get broken anytime soon!

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Diogenes
====================
The Cynic

Quote:

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Orginally posted by DiogenestheCynic

Does SF do any work other than post on CD??
Wow! I think he has set the record for the longest posts, and I don't think it is going to get broken anytime soon!

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HI soberflier,
Brilliant post buddy.... Nice Research work done.... though couldnt read through the whole thing immediately, but I promise I will do it soon.
But I saw words like sikh, turban, hair etc occuring pretty frequently in your post. So let me clarify, as I mentioned earlier my comments are not about sikhs, turbans, hair or about the french govt's decision......
As rightly said by someone in one of the posts that religion is very individualistic thing and to which extent one goes in practicising it should be left to him.
And you wrote, "they have enacted this law whether you and me keep fighting over it for hundred years" followed by a dodgy smiley........ Now friend read my post again, did I say even once that what french are doing is wrong and also I guess you have assumed that I am a sikh. Anyway, not your fault
My only idea was to share with you guyz what I have experienced. I have noticed that indians, specially here in germany, are rajasthanis, gujratis,punjabis, malyaalis, tamils, sikhs, hindus, muslims first and then they are indians.....
Dont know if you have observed this in canada. I have always found this very sad and unfortunate. On one hand we call ourselves educated and well read and on other hand waste our time on stupid things like religion. At least I will not go to any website or threads where such comments (the ones you have quoted) are posted, be it of any religion and be it positive or negative, I just dont have time for this kind of crap.
I have actually started a thread about religions and it was really heartening to know that there are still people who give a shit to religion.

So dost, my post intended to be very general and was not directed towards anyone. Probably we misunderstood each other.....
So, please dont take my post too personally. I will love to have your comments on the thread that I have initiated on this forum.... Its called "Who created religions".......

And lastly, I can explain the meaning of frustration, if you want
Just kidding !!!!

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Cheers,
JSethi