UN HDI report 2004
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Posted on: 11-11-04 14:49:48
Quote:
Orginally posted by BlueLobster
Diogenes, What YOUR point? Aren't you the guy who wants only facts posted on the forum and not opinions?
I don’t quite understand your question. In my above post I have only asked crensahw what exactly he is trying to convey especially in the context of desis in Canada? In my subsequent post I have gone on to explain why I felt the UNDP report is not unerringly applicable when discussing issues of immigrants.
Where did I make any comments about not wanting “facts” or such??
Quote:
Orginally posted by BlueLobster
In another thread, you're coming down upon someone asking about the US against the Cdn. dollar and telling him to google instead. So what's your point?
This question was also asked by VJ in a post of his. I have explained the “point” to him in that thread. To save you the effort of looking for that thread here is a “cut&paste” of what I wrote to him:
/Quote/-
Now I want you to consider the following 2 scenarios.
Scenario 1. This man has access to a computer and the internet and has a very simple query.
He opens google/yahoo/msn whatever, types in the word/phrase that he wants information on, and hits "enter". The google search engine immediately provides him with the answer. The man reads the answer and is on his way.
Total time taken: 2 mins to get full, factual and correct information from the original source.
Effort:
1. Connecting to the internet.
2. Few keystrokes and mouse clicks - only one time.
Scenario 2:
This man has access to a computer and the internet and has a simple query.
He opens canadiandesi.com.
Opens a new thread.
Types in his query and posts it.
Waits for someone to respond. No one responds.
Shuts down computer. Goes home/to bed.
Logs on again. Checks for replies. None yet. Logs off. Shuts down computer. Goes home/to bed.
Logs on again. Checks for replies. If some member has taken interest and has bothered to respond, he finds a reply. Depending on the quality of the responder the reply could be right and complete, right but incomplete, or wrong altogether.
The man asks more clarifications.
More replies.
Assuming that the man eventually does get a proper reply:
Time spent: From immediate(considering best scenario of someone responding immediately but virtually impossible) to 2 to 3 days, or even never
Effort: Repeated logging in and checking.
Risk: Wrong information.
Now YOU tell me, which is the better option?? Is it really so difficult o understand that option 1 is better? Does it really have to be TOLD to people? I mean who in his right mind would not try to search for an answer himself? Beats me! And if they don't , shouldn't they be told??
Ever heard of the saying? : Feed a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.
-/Unquote/
I hope you now understand.
Quote:
Orginally posted by BlueLobster
Its a well known fact that pretty much everything on the site can be dug up on the net using google. Hey, why should anyone use google, you can probably use other search engines. But wait! Why do they even have other search engines when you can use google for everything? Maybe worth having a popup in Yahoo, MSN, Lycos et al. whenever someone does a search "Try google instead!".
Now, I do not understand what is YOUR point here?
AFAIK and as is used by me, “googling” has become a synonym for "searching", primarily because until recently many of the search engines used the same technology as Google, and because until now Google gives the best results. When I say “google” with a small “g” it actually only means no more than “search the internet”. I don’t quite understand what all you have said about having pop-ups of “Try google instead!” in other search engines!?!?
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Diogenes
====================
The Cynic
Quote:
Orginally posted by DiogenestheCynic
An immigrant does not really care if “70% - 80% of the population is left behind.”? A typical immigrant is a self seeking individual in search of purely selfish interests. He has a capitalistic outlook to life and is not someone who loses any sleep over the fact that “70% - 80% of the population is left behind.” The immigrant, like any other average citizen of his country, does not really do much more than preach about social progress and amelioration of the down-trodden. Let’s save that for some other discussion please!
DTC...your reasoning is highly flawed. I consider myself a capitalist and i do not think it has anything to do with selfishness. Wealth creation is the way I contribute to society. Also I do not see many capitalists on this board. I do see well-to-do employees(or who were the same once upon a time). Capitalists do not whine. They are often the engines that create jobs and seldom worry about working in one. Any trueblood capitalist would not hesitate to tell you that it is in their favor that there is overall improvements in standard of living. Simply because where there is too much of a gap between rich and poor...capitalism often fails. e.g: poor/hungry and unemployed masses are more likely to burn down your business.
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There’s a very practical consideration to talking about the ‘70% - 80% of the population that’s left behind and that practical consideration is relevant to every intending immigrant.
When you pay your tax dollars / rupees to the Government, the Government’s first priority is to address priority issues (like addressing poverty alleviation issues or the backlog in immunization or in AIDS prevention or in poverty alleviation or in providing water to the 50% of the population that does not have access to it) rather than on infrastructure like parks and libraries that contribute to a higher quality of life in the West.
There are several examples as to how the presence of a better infrastructure can make a big difference to the quality of life – even to the class of immigrants that immigrate to Canada:
- You and I use hi-speed internet here, we would have been using dial-up in India.
- We take our power supply for granted, something that would not be realistic in most cities in India.
- We take our water supply for granted, something that would not be realistic in India
- Our apartment / condominium buildings have full access to facilities like gymnasiums, swimming pools, etc – something that’s not available to the average middle class person in India.
Of course, I’m not even starting to consider things like roads.
Incidentally one of the reasons I referred to Amartya Sen is because of his focus on “human development”. If you want to find out how “human development” is linked to the HDI indicators all you need to do is read the Foreword and the references to him providing the conceptual framework for the entire report.
On a different note DTC, unconnected with this topic but I thought I'd ask this anyway, do you identify yourself with Diogenes of Sinope?
Quote:
Orginally posted by jake3d
DTC...your reasoning is highly flawed. I consider myself a capitalist and i do not think it has anything to do with selfishness. Wealth creation is the way I contribute to society.
I did have a premonition that my comments would raise some hackles.
However, I would like to point out that the phrase I used was "capitalistic outlook" and not "capitalist" itself. Belief in capitalism does not make one an actual capitalist by default, if you know what I mean.
Quote:
Orginally posted by jake3d
Also I do not see many capitalists on this board. Capitalists do not whine.
I do not know why you have used the term "whining" here? I am only discussing the relevance of the UNDP report to a certain class of people.
And since you have used that term, I am would like to understand why people like you tend to use the word "whine" for any argument that goes against your perception? Everyone is entitled to his convictions and impressions drawn from his own experiences etc. and he should just as free as you are to express them. If something that you find good is not considered by some as equally good based on their experience why and how does it become "whining"?
I am afraid, the rest of your post did not make much sense to me.
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Diogenes
====================
The Cynic
Quote:
Orginally posted by DiogenestheCynic
I did have a premonition that my comments would raise some hackles.
However, I would like to point out that the phrase I used was "capitalistic outlook" and not "capitalist" itself. Belief in capitalism does not make one an actual capitalist by default, if you know what I mean.
Capitalistic outlook does make a capitalist....and I do not see a capitalist outlook here(for most). Yes I do see a belief in capitalism...which like you say is not the same thing.
Quote:
I do not know why you have used the term "whining" here? I am only trying to discussing the relevance of the UNDP report to a certain class of people.
And since you have used that term, I am would like to understand why people like you tend to use the word "whine" for any argument that goes against your perception? Everyone is entitled to his convictions and impressions drawn from his own experiences etc. and he should just as free as you are to express them. If something that you find good is not considered by some as equally good based on their experience why and how does it become "whining"?
I am afraid, the rest of your post did not make much sense to me.
Firstly I did not say you were whining on this thread. I said that most people on this board do.
I say whining because I consider myself a capitalist. However, just because I say 'whine' I do not infer that nobody should. If they feel it is helping them...they definitely should
. If not they are not helping themselves, they probably know it. Eitherway its ok with me. This is a free country. I am free to use the term i want. They are free to whine.The rest of the post was not so difficult either. I'll be a bit clearer. If the 70-80% of people are malnutritioned, poor, unhealthy...it does not bide well for the capitalist. Inferior talent pool, drain on resources(as pointed by crenshaw), bad infrastructure, law and order problems etc. are major impediments to Businessess. In other words...the UN HDI report is very important to those who want to create assets(immigrants or otherwise...its the same to me...well actually, i consider immigrants at an advantage).
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Quote:
Orginally posted by jake3d
Capitalistic outlook does make a capitalist....and I do not see a capitalist outlook here(for most). Yes I do see a belief in capitalism...which like you say is not the same thing.
I think we are just mincing words here. A belief in capitalism makes a peroson have a capitalisitic outlook. "Capitalistic" means "practicing or advocating capitalism" which is the same as belief in capitalism. When someone chooses to leave his home country for greener pastures, it implies that he believes in the concept of capitalism and given an opportunity would also want to become a capitalist and practise capitalism.
Quote:
Orginally posted by jake3d
I say whining because I consider myself a capitalist.
I am afraid I am not able to grasp the relation between "whining" and "capitalism"??
AFAIK "whining" essentially means "to complain". Are you trying to say that capitalists are not entitled to complain about whatever, or that those who complain about whatever cannot be capitalists?? Sorry but I do not see what the one has to do with the other??
Quote:
Orginally posted by jake3d
I am free to use the term i want.
Sure, but I guess the words and phrases used are required to follow some norms of communication in order for it to proceed effectively.
Quote:
Orginally posted by jake3d
In other words...the UN HDI report is very important to those who want to create assets.
I do not see how the UNDP report can be used by any capitalist to create assets. The UNDP reports are created with different themes and messages in different years. The UN itself does not claim it to be a measure of "how good a country is to live in". As I have said earlier, the purpose of the report is more for the countries to get an idea of where they need to improve with regard to human development. Maybe you can use it to create assets but we will leave that lesson for another day.
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Diogenes
====================
The Cynic
