I'm a bit under the weather and cannot get anything meaningful done today so it's the perfect time to indulge in this once more .

A few questions to try to understand you better.
I'd liketo know exactly why you think this metamorphosis is hedious?
If you are totally convinced of this fact, what would you say about people who were vociferously oppossed to a lot of the changes in society we now take for granted -e.g:
1)someone who was as convinced that equal rights were bad and racial seggregation was the way to go.
2)Women should not be allowed to vote.
3)A womens place is in her home.
or closer to home
4)the caste system is ordained in the vedas and hence cannot be irrelevant in todays society.
etc....ad nauseum.

The question to you is that are you completely sure that this is as hedious as you think it is? People thought the same about the above points at sometime. I admit that I may be wrong and it may be as bad as you say it is. How about you? Are you sure that you cannot be wrong on this? What, according to you, is the barometer according to which this (legalising gay marriages) is to be judged right or wrong?

I'd like to point out that my objective is simply to test the validity of your convictions and find out if they are indeed as solid as you think they are. If they do measure up then I will surely have to rethink my position. I do hope we can conduct this debate without personally attacking each other (maybe we did or did not in the past)

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As it is said, God made Adam and Eve and not Adam and Steve.

A bisexual relationship is natural whereas a homosexual relationship is unnatural (our sex organs have been designed so). We can talk about the freedom of choice to any length but where are we heading to? People may want to legalise anything- bestiality, incest, pedophilism, open sex in public and what not. It is easy to argue how ones freedom is being curtailed by any restrictions but to me the interests of the society is more important than any individual's personal freedom.

Despite all our developments, we still need a man and a woman to procreate. In any society, a healthy family is very important. A same sex couple sadly cannot have their own children and would have to adopt if they want to raise up children. By legalising same sex marriage, one is giving them the same right as heterosexual couples. A child (either biological or adopted) requires both the father and mother to grow up in a healthy environment. A same sex couple can act as a husband and wife but cannot be a real father and mother to a child (our attitudes gets changed with time but a child is always a child, be it today or 1000 years ago). One can argue for same sex marriages by citing incidents of child abuse in heterosexual marriage or in single parents. But to me that argument is fallacious- a wrong cannot be used to justify a bigger wrong.

You may have a different opinion but I am certainly against same sex marriages.

------
Shibu

Hi Shibu,
Welcome to the debate.

About adam, Eve Steve comment: If we take Genesis literally, as a statement of proper sexual behavior, it endorses incest. After all, whom could Cain and Abel marry but their sisters, and whom could Adam and Eve's grandchildren marry but each other?

I am ok with any freedom as long as it is not harming anybody else. In pedophelia one is imposing oneself on vulnerable/impressionable often defenseless victims. That will never be legalised. That is a totally different story. As for the rest it is a personal choice.

When you say natural, you mean that homosexuality is unnatural to you right? It is perfectly natural for a homosexual. Homosexuality existed from the dawn of mankind. It also exists among animals. This fact has been well documented. So then if it is natural for some does it become unnatural because you do not indulge in it?
The sex organs have been designed that way...but for procreation! For sexual pleasure either sex will do for those who are so disposed to think. Many will agree that one does not need any partner at all . That is unnatural too....or is it?
The ancient Greeks are said to mentor young boys and part of the mentorship was in sexual activities. Many of them are said to have prefered males as sexual partners. NOTE: I am not saying that this is right....just that it happened. Homosexuality is not a new chapter in human history.

Yes a healthy family is important. Questions for you
1) You think it is better for a child not to be adopted than adopted by a homosexual couple?
2) Is love not the prerequisite for being a good parent? Is gender more important?
3) You think a that having a bad father or mother is a better rolemodel or loving and caring individuals (irrespective of gender)? If you (on your death bed) had a choice between giving your only dependent young child to an abusive couple or unabusive one would you care about the gender of the said couples?
4) Does love or gender define a healthy family?
5) Children from 1000 years ago to now have been raised only by women or only by men ( while the father/mother has absent due to choice, economic situation, army service, death etc). Many such children have been valuable contributors to society and human evolution. In the light of this fact you still think gender is important in a child upbringing or is it love?
6)What is a 'real' father and a real mother? Someone who performs biological functions( giving birth) or someone who fulfills their parental duties, the paramount of which....'love' from which everything else flows? Why would a homosexual couple not be able to love a child?
7) Would a 6 year old child love his/her homosexual parents any less than they would love their hetrosexual parents.

What I am not convinced is that homosexuality is wrong for homosexuals. If it is not wrong why not let them marry? It definitely is wrong for me and for you Shibu. I do not debate that *at all*.
Is it good for kids to have homosexual parents?...the jury is still out. The questions I have mentioned above should figure in the debate.
An interesting read that explores both sides:
http://www.unice.fr/mdl/uk_works/HOMOSEXUAL%20PARENTS.htm


Bluelobster, I hope you do not mix your post with this one since this thread is at a different level than the one we were engaged in.

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hi Jake,

As for Adam and Eve and Genesis, there are different views on how Seth (the brother of Cain and Abel, and whose genealogy is mentioned in the Bible) had children. Genesis also tells how God destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, the reason- homosexuality. Anyway, let us keep religion out of here.

You are right about pedophilia. But what if the child is willing? As per the current law, it is illegal. But do you think it is going to stay that way? In Canada, one attains adulthood at 16, but why not 10? And why cant a child have the right to choose? If a child of 8 wants to have sex with an adult, why are you infringing on his personal freedom? Probably, some child will go to the court one day with arguments such as these, and the court will uphold his rights. And people will say, our traditions were archaic and its time to move forward.

Homosexuality is not new but what concerns many is its newfound acceptability. And now they say, it is all in the genes and they cannot help it. I dont believe it, but what I find appalling is that people are afraid to question it because they think that it will amount to infringing on someone's individual freedom. The fact is that the silent majority is afraid of the homosexual minority, who happens to be very vocal. Now they want to make a homosexual union equivalent to man-woman matrimony!

As for your questions:

1) In the west, there is no dearth of heterosexual couples willing to adopt. So you dont need homosexual couples to take that role.

2) A woman and man has different roles to play in bringing up a child. How much I try, I can never be a mother to my children and my wife cannot be the father. The children looks upon both the father and the mother, and they model them accordingly for different aspects in their life.

3) If I have a choice between a man- woman couple and a same sex couple, I would certainly go for the first couple without any iota of doubt, assuming comparable conditions except for the gender.

4) A healthy family is where there is father, mother, children and love.

6) I think gender is very important. There could be many people who become successful despite coming from incomplete families but most of these cases would be due to circumstances, which the child understands and tries to adjust accordingly. But what would be more difficult for him to understand is why he has two fathers or two mothers instead of a father and a mother.

6) Biological parents are very important to the children. Any child would someday want to know who his real parents are and he (or she) will search with all his might to find it out. That is how we are born to be. Our local newspapers have news items at least once or twice a month about young adults, adopted and brought up in the west, desperately searching for their parents in India who abandoned them in their childhood. What brings them back is only their inner urge to know who their parents were/ are, which shows our natural desire as human beings.

7) A 6-yr. old may not know but he will soon find out the difference.

I am a hetrosexual and intend to stay that way. What I object to is not whether anyone is homosexual or not (its their business as long as it is confined to their bedrooms) but their willingness to flout it in open and declare that it fashionable and the right thing to do. That is going to affect the next generation including my children, which is not something I can ignore easily.

------
Shibu

yes religion is out of this...thank you.
about pedophelia first:
It will always stay that way. A child is impressionable and as such cannot make choices that reflect his/her well being. Unless all our children suddenly develop this maturity at 8 pedophelia is going to stay that way. Illegal! Comparing phedophelia and homosexuality is certainly not wise in my opinion.

What exactly is your opinion about homosexuals? That they have knowingly chosen to be derided, hated, marginalised and ridiculed by society.? If you think it is because it is considered a fashion in the west how do you account for the homosexuals in countries like India? You think these people would have knowingly chosen this way of life? A lot of them commit or attempt suicide in their adolescence. Do you think this is because they have knowingly engineered their situation?
e.g: I read the story of this young muslim man disowned by everybody and going through absolute agony due to his sexual orientation.
For the sake of fashion? I find that difficult to believe. Common sense prevents me from going down that path.

Thank you for telling me what you do not believe. I would be very interested in knowing what you think is the reason these people are this way? And why you think anybody would 'choose' to be homosexual and subject themselves to this mental pain.

about your answers to my questions:
1) I was not talking about need but basically you say that homosexual couples should be kept out of it. right?
2) I do not agree. let me ask you what makes you the father? Because you do not cook and clean? or because you bring more money than your wife? Or because your wife is more patient and listens to the kid? Why exactly can you not be a mother to your kids? What role is it that your wife plays that you cannot? I ask you this because I am trying to understand what exactly you are talking about.
3)that was not my question. The choices were between an abusive couple and nonabusive one. e.g: someone told you we have 2 cpls one is abusive and one is non abusive. One happens to be homosexual and the other straight. However you are given a choice between the abusive and non abusive only. You are not told which cpl is gay. What would your choice be?
4) Similarly I can say a healthy family should be white, christian, father, stay at home mother and children(one girl and one boy). Statements without explanations only reflect personal opinions which could be wrong or right. Does not add anything to the debate does it?
5) Not any more difficult that telling a child that some of his friends are rich and others are poor, some are white and others black. I do not see any difficulty. Why exactly do you think it will be difficult?Can you explain better?
6) There are countless stories of such kids being disappointed when they find out their biological parents. Even being unable to bond with them at any level. Innate urges do not translate to moral legitimacy. The people who fulfill parental duties are the parents.BTW: most adopted children undertake this quest when they themselves have kids and want to find out the medical history of their families..for the sake of their kids.
Either way I do not see your answer go anywhere.
You think this is a valid argument to my original question?
7) Yes but he would not love them any less because they are homosexual...unless they have failed to love him

Basically, I can see that all your answers are fashioned on the premise that homosexuality is wrong and that some people have taken it upon themselves to hoist this filthy act on the rest of us. Are you willing to question this conviction of yours? I am honestly amazed that people think that homosexuality is fashionable. I do not know if any homosexual has said that it is the right thing to do either. Where exactly did you draw this conclussion from? I'd like a link to that source too. Maybe I am missing something.

I need more tylenol....my head is swimming from this nasty virus that is playing havoc with my family the last cpl of days.

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Quote:

---

Orginally posted by jake3d

I'm a bit under the weather and cannot get anything meaningful done today so it's the perfect time to indulge in this once more .

A few questions to try to understand you better.
I'd liketo know exactly why you think this metamorphosis is hedious?
If you are totally convinced of this fact, what would you say about people who were vociferously oppossed to a lot of the changes in society we now take for granted -e.g:
1)someone who was as convinced that equal rights were bad and racial seggregation was the way to go.
2)Women should not be allowed to vote.
3)A womens place is in her home.
or closer to home
4)the caste system is ordained in the vedas and hence cannot be irrelevant in todays society.
etc....ad nauseum.

The question to you is that are you completely sure that this is as hedious as you think it is? People thought the same about the above points at sometime. I admit that I may be wrong and it may be as bad as you say it is. How about you? Are you sure that you cannot be wrong on this? What, according to you, is the barometer according to which this (legalising gay marriages) is to be judged right or wrong?

I'd like to point out that my objective is simply to test the validity of your convictions and find out if they are indeed as solid as you think they are. If they do measure up then I will surely have to rethink my position. I do hope we can conduct this debate without personally attacking each other (maybe we did or did not in the past)

---

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Are you there?

Hi Bluelobster,
Yes, i re-read your posting and see that you meant the evolution of society in general. I was not all there yesterday

The fact that you admit that your opinions could be wrong just as my opinions can, is probably what I wanted to hear all along. Maybe I'm just insecure

I'm looking forward to time in that room myself because I need answers to a whole bunch of stuff.
And there's FROZEN BHAJI _PAV?????

Feeling much beter now. A good nights rest seems to have done the trick for all of us at home.

I'll read your article when I wake up a bit. Looks interesting when I skimmed thru. We'll start another rambling thread on that sometime.

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