Posted on: 11-02-05 14:09:43
Quote:
Orginally posted by prakask55
Mera bas chale to in leaders & (chamche of western culture) ko chorahe par juton ki mala pahananu.
because of votes politics & personal intrests these criminals abusing hindus in there own country.
Vow, Gold. Pure gold.
Just dont forget to include political leaders of right wing parties too.
Many of them are quite well edcuated chamchas of Western culture (more than you would like to admit). Those who are not are as corrupt and are perpetrating the same vote bank politics.
Go!
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It seems people are registering just to respond to this thread. Or maybe they are answering their own questions.....
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Quote:
Orginally posted by crenshaw
http://www.censusindia.net/religiondata/statement.pdf
These numbers would suggest that conversion numbers have been insignificant. Of course, the entire issue is a good political tool for right wingers to mobilize themselves and evidently brings out strong reactions as is evident from this post:
Thanks for the link Crenshaw. I was trying to find this information. I remember the numbers telling the same story even when I was in school a cpl of decades ago.
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Hi All
Good morning.
I will provide some point by point rebuttal of the points made by rejoinders by esteemed members. But before I do that, I wish to say that I want Jayaendra Sarawathi to be hanged to death if he is found guilty. Nay, hope he is stoned to death in public for not only has he destroyed a great institution, he has destroyed the very fabric of commonly accepted wisdom.
First the census. We all know that when the census figures in India were recently published, the growth rate of a particular segment was said to be 44 per thousand as against the national average of 21 per thousand. Obviously, right wingers went to town about it. And that became a fodder for the court jesters ( one whose name rhymes with Aloo) and overnight the figures were changed. The segmental growth quoted now stands at 29 for that segment as against the original 44. So much for accuracy of the data.
Second, how far would we like to go? Some of us have spoken about original inhabitants being Dravidians.
Some of the temples of Pallava and Chola dynasty date back to 3rd century BC. Is that enough to link the same to the temples of Modern day Thanjavur? And how did Indonesia adopt Hinduism ( it was Hindu until end 15th Century AD)? Was it also because of the spread of the same by sword….as is being implied in the question?
I think Hindus always have co-opted segments of population. Thus Sakas and Huns have been assimilated in to the very fabric of life and many a present day Rajput/Jat/Bishnoi families will bear the DNA imprints of those nomadic tribes that came to India. The problems have existed where the segments have resisted cooption.
Third
About the threat posed by conversions. I am quoting verbatim from an article whose link is provided below the extract:
The Indian government has failed to protect Hindu Reang tribals in Tripura from being ethnically cleansed by ……….
http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/aug/16rajeev.htm
http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/feb/23rajeev.htm
So much for the benign intentions of the conversions.
Fourth AND THE MOST IMPORTANT POINT
Fun has been poked by some members regarding the impact of my theory of ‘beachhead”. It is actually called logical incrementalism. But that is a different point.
Let us consider for a moment the constitution of the present parliament in New Delhi.
The main segment that changed the ruling government was the number of MPs from Andhra Pradesh. Where did those MPs come from? They came from the support of Naxalites, the very same people who have been now roaming around the greater country side talking of Maoist revolution in India, who have helped terrorists in Kashmir and North East, to smuggle arms across the length and breadth.
And pray how many of them are linked to church? Please read the articles by Ajai Sahni in Outlookindia.com and you would know what I am talking about.
When the fractured polity is New Delhi is dictated to by a motley group of thirty odd MPs, who owe their victory to tacit pre-poll pact, then it becomes clear that we are not talking here of only beachheads and McDonalds but something far more important.
That I hope will be enough food for thought to many esteemed members of the establishment.
My aim is not to provoke a heated round of discussion but just to provoke everyone to think. If I can provoke even ten odd members to think, then I would have succeeded in what I had set out to do.
Thank you.
With regards.
Vp
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vpan
Quote:
Orginally posted by V PANDIT
I will provide some point by point rebuttal of the points made by rejoinders by esteemed members.
snip
First the census. We all know that when the census figures in India were recently published, the growth rate of a particular segment was said to be 44 per thousand as against the national average of 21 per thousand. Obviously, right wingers went to town about it. And that became a fodder for the court jesters ( one whose name rhymes with Aloo) and overnight the figures were changed. The segmental growth quoted now stands at 29 for that segment as against the original 44. So much for accuracy of the data.
Odd, when numbers don't suit you, you claim that they are unreliable!
Funny how you forget that the BJP had been in power when the exercise was conducted. If there was a legitimate case to challenge the numbers, it would have been in court by now!
........and the segmental growth rate for Christians is 22 rather than 29.....you got that wrong as well.
Quote:
Orginally posted by V PANDIT
Second, how far would we like to go? Some of us have spoken about original inhabitants being Dravidians.
How far would you like to go?
Quote:
Orginally posted by V PANDIT
Third
About the threat posed by conversions. I am quoting verbatim from an article whose link is provided below the extract:
The Indian government has failed to protect Hindu Reang tribals in Tripura from being ethnically cleansed by ……….
http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/aug/16rajeev.htm
http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/feb/23rajeev.htm
So much for the benign intentions of the conversions.
Some other quotes from the above articles - "the Pope preaches hatred".
"sensible Asian countries did not allow the Pope to enter them", "Sonia Gandhi the Christian fundamentalist"
Would you care to elaborate how the Pope preaches hatred - or which 'sensible' Asian country did not allow the Pope to enter......since you seem to condone the views of this writer!
Quote:
Orginally posted by V PANDIT
Fourth AND THE MOST IMPORTANT POINT
Fun has been poked by some members regarding the impact of my theory of ‘beachhead”. It is actually called logical incrementalism. But that is a different point.
Let us consider for a moment the constitution of the present parliament in New Delhi.
The main segment that changed the ruling government was the number of MPs from Andhra Pradesh. Where did those MPs come from? They came from the support of Naxalites, the very same people who have been now roaming around the greater country side talking of Maoist revolution in India, who have helped terrorists in Kashmir and North East, to smuggle arms across the length and breadth.
And pray how many of them are linked to church? Please read the articles by Ajai Sahni in Outlookindia.com and you would know what I am talking about.
When the fractured polity is New Delhi is dictated to by a motley group of thirty odd MPs, who owe their victory to tacit pre-poll pact, then it becomes clear that we are not talking here of only beachheads and McDonalds but something far more important.
That I hope will be enough food for thought to many esteemed members of the establishment.
Nice try with the logical incrementalism bit!
Whoaa....so now the conspiracy plot thickens!
Its the multinationals who want to create Christian beachheads to ultimately sell Big Macs in rural India........with the assistance of Naxalites who now hold the Indian Government hostage!
Heck, they're already selling burgers and pizzas in India....half the population must have already been converted to Christianity
Try your luck with some fiction story writing, you'd give Sidney Sheldon et al a run for their money!
Quote:
Orginally posted by V PANDIT
My aim is not to provoke a heated round of discussion but just to provoke everyone to think. If I can provoke even ten odd members to think, then I would have succeeded in what I had set out to do.
If that was not your aim, I can't see the purpose of posting a link to an article that suggests that the Pope preaches hatred!
Quote:
Orginally posted by crenshaw
Funny how you forget that the BJP had been in power when the exercise was conducted. If there was a legitimate case to challenge the numbers, it would have been in court by now!
well the conspiracy probably runs deep thats why its not in court.
The BJP is in on it too. Basically the BJP has teamed up with the Naxals, muslims and multinationals and the hatred preaching pope(church)...the now Christian tribals being the the hidden front & more importantly a new market for the multinationals. Once they sell them the burgers, bmws and lexus cars will follow.
The offshoring of jobs similarly has the same game plan. The call centers hindus who are now asked to assume christian names will finally be asked to convert and will do so, drunk as they are on the money that the multiunationals pump in.
The Canadian govt is not far behind. It hopes to lure hindu immigrants here, forcing them to menial jobs, in order to convert them(in their desparation) thus forming another front to attack the motherland.
Finally there are the black helicopters. Remember nobody is to be trusted.
Its plausible of course! I've got my tinfoil on anyway
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Quote:
Orginally posted by V PANDIT
Second, how far would we like to go? Some of us have spoken about original inhabitants being Dravidians.
Some of the temples of Pallava and Chola dynasty date back to 3rd century BC. Is that enough to link the same to the temples of Modern day Thanjavur? And how did Indonesia adopt Hinduism ( it was Hindu until end 15th Century AD)? Was it also because of the spread of the same by sword….as is being implied in the question?
I think Hindus always have co-opted segments of population. Thus Sakas and Huns have been assimilated in to the very fabric of life and many a present day Rajput/Jat/Bishnoi families will bear the DNA imprints of those nomadic tribes that came to India. The problems have existed where the segments have resisted cooption.
Thank you.
With regards.
Vp
Are you sure that Cholas and Pallava dynasty , let alone the temples they built date back to 3rd century BC. Because I think both of them didnt quite get started till well after AD. Well into the middle part of the 1st mill.
By co-opting do you mean the local (Hindu) population co-opted foreign groups or vice - versa?
"The problems have existed where the segments have resisted cooption. "
Which group resisted cooption?
Islam didnot always spread by the sword. there are instances in the world and within India where It spread over period of time by Arabs migrating and living there.
E.g. The Malabar and konkan coast had settlements of Arabs who were essentially traders. they traded in spcies and pepper, among other things. with Europe. these Arabs settled permanently int he coastal regions of west and the south from the 8th and 9th cent AD. they were welcomed , given land and left free to pratice their religion. the present day mappilas or Malabar muslims are descendants of these settlers. so are the Navayats who have emerged from those setlled amid the Jaina communities of konkan. (From EarlyIndia by Romila Thapar p 332).
Regarding the burger stuff....
I think we should do all to keep Mcdonalds out of any country in the world.
Simply , because consuming it on a regular basis is just plain bad....
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