"Can you clarify what your experience is in dealing with Canadian borns? are you talking about Indo canadians? I am not disagreeing with you because being a Canadian born myself, I HAVE also experienced some negative things but am trying not to dwell on them."


Yes, my experience has been with both Indo Canadians (or 'East Indians') as we are still called. On a slightly different note, I think we should all protest this usage. Why should we be 'East Indians'? As if there are 'other Indians'. But the 'other Indians' became 'Native Canadians' some time ago, while we are still stuck with 'East Indian' label. We should become 'Indians' or 'Asian Indians' or perhaps the most PC 'Canadian Asian Indians'!

The Indo-Canadians I have dealt with have their own way of showing their superiority over first generation immigrants. Not to generalize, but in a gathering of 2nd generation Indo-Canadians, sometimes you are purposefully made out of place. I've seen this a few times. But there could always be individual exceptions. Or may be I've just become too sensitive in picking up these clues!

Interestingly, I used to feel more comfortable with 'white Canadians' more than the second generation Indo-Canadians. I would often find that white canadians are more open than our own second generation desis. Everything would usually be fine till you sing the praises of Canada or talk about problems of India. But if you begin to talk a little about areas where canada is lacking...the problems begins. I've actually had a close 'friend', a white Canadian almost telling me to 'go back to where I came from', after I had a converstaion related to problems with Canadian high tech industry! And they expect next Google to come from Waterloo or Ottawa! It ain't going to happen with this attitude.


So I think there's a subtle mix of condescencion and racism as you begin to rise professionally and it will manifest in various ways. My personal observation is that we don't have very many Indian CXO level officer of a Canadian company. Or for that matter, we don't have too many Indo-Canadian enterprenuers in high tech either. In the US, we'll find hundreds of CXO level officers at numerous MNCs and a very large number of high tec enterpreneurs.

And at the bottom of this is probably the 'inward looking' mentality of most Canadians. They will generally be very polite, very warm, always smiling, willing to experiment with foods and travel, but when it gets down to the real thing-like making a brown guy or gal the CFO or CEO or giving venture fundingt-most would balk at the thought. It's not impossible to succeed, but odds are stacked against you.

Not to belabor further, but I've had some people trying to correct my English usage in a meeting. So if there's a slip of tongue or even if you are speaking informally, you are under watch, especially when you are perfoming well 99% of the time! If you have a clear east indian accent or Chinese accent and have trouble communicating, they'll be very encouraging. but if you can speak well, have no accent and communicate clearly, write well....there could be interesting experiences. May be it is has been just with me.

But I do agree that negative thinking doesn't take us anywhere. Racism is the most universal human feeling and we are all racist towards someone, somewhere at some time. So may be we should give others benefit of doubt and at least feel good that instituationally, there is very minimal racism in Canada.

Thanks if you could read it this far!

Comparision of two country systme is done only when you live in both or see both.

In india who have never see the out side india they are still thinking that the all good things are in wetern world only.

and same mentality in in western world people who always live in their country never visti india or china they are thinking that all good thing are with us and bad things are in china and india.

But you take opinion from indian or wetern wolrd person who have seen both world their opinon change evry five year.....bcos world is changing.

Why immigrant are telling the bad and good thing about canada bcos they seen both the system BUT who have not see both system they always tell about they have seen .


BY THE WAY about canada economy
Pictuer start as below comparision

US and canada is like India and nepal
canada depend wholy on US economy (bcos its 85% business is with US)
same you can think about Nepal...INDIA

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go to http://strategis.gc.ca site and see top 25 product that canada import and export

you can easily see that same material come from USA and Job work was doen in Canada and again assemble material Export to USA.

so you can think why canada need too much immigrant ?

US is very selfish and think only about them only.
US start Job work for automobile in canada
Reason - technology NO-------Free HEALTH for worker.
in USA compnay have to give all benifit to emplyee so they transfer all work to canada
bcos in canada health is free and by GOVT so compny have no tension about that and also they start doing job work by temp agency people or contract so they don't have to give more benifit to employee .........

now a time it is also costly so they are tranferring job to USA or india where the job work is very cheap then canada and mexico.

also one report come "THE RICH AND THE REST OF US" it is very intresting.

I'd love to hear about a country where there are no complaints from either its citizens or neighbors. Fiji?? Don't think so, there was a coup there recently.

And I don't see the big deal about about the Canadian market being flooded with Chinese products; the entire planet is flooded with the same. Its no different in the states or a lot of EU countries. Or even the South Pacific markets. Cheap chinese products are everywhere. The first world countries cannot compete with China in this.

Not sure what that has to do with Canada's future in the next 10-20 years. Chinese products have been around for a good number of yrs. now, we seem to be doing fine. Can you explain how this is a threat to Canada?

Lastly, how long do you guys think China can sustain this manufaturing prowess? Their strength is in cheap efficient labour and a devalued currency, not technology or innovation. As the country progresses, moves away from the shackles of communism and the Chinese population is more exposed to ideas like democracy and free-market principles, they're not going to keep working at the $1 per day rate for too long. Pretty soon they'll want health coverage, vacations, rights, unions, work-life balance, freedom of speech, strikes etc etc. And you know what that ultimately does, right? Drive up labour and thus mfg. costs. Its only a matter of time.

20 years from now, if China is the true super-power it promises to be, there is no way people in China will work for the kind of wages they are now. At that point in time, whether China retains its super-power status will be determined by how well it does on the innovation front, not pure manufacturing. And the same thing applies to Canada or any other country for that matter.

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Are you there?

Ok, here's a sidetrack to the sidetrack!

Fido, have to say I completely identified with your gripes about this country...the near monopolies in industries like telecom, banking etc. Free incoming (local) calls!! WTF is with that?? And that also only after signing away your first born in the contract!

These sectors offer more even in India, i.e. a third world country.

Ok, now back to the sidetrack

It's pretty sad that you have to earn only $100K to be in the richest 20%. Discouraging in terms of the future earnings potential. I'm rambling...

I thought I should chip in my two cents on the Canadian economy as well. Canada is primarily a resource driven economy, despite the claims to contrary. Canada is booming right now because the commodities are booming. Loonie is up because oil and other resource prices are up. Just look at the end of 2001/early 2002 when Canada was really at the lowest ebb in the last commodity cycle. Loonie was down to 60 cents and economy wasn't growing. Strength in commodities increased jobs in the primary sectors, causing a jump in the service sector jobs, which fueled government revenues which further generated employment for all other sectors. Essentially, a benign cycle for Canadian economy begins when commodity prices are high.
Canada enjoyed decades of high paying manufacturing jobs based on special agreements with the US.
But that is all becoming a thing of the past as loonie is rising and Asian/other cheaper locations are undercutting Canadian cost by an order of magnitude.
In a few years as the Big 3 become even more irrelevant in auto sector, Canada will have to compete with numerous states in the US that want to attract European or Japanese manufacturers. It'll be an uphill taks requiring billions of dollars in subsidy to generate a few thousand jobs.
I think Canada should really recognize that it cannot compete with third world countries. It really has to go beyound competing on cost. It needs to compete on intellectual prowess of its citizens and immigrants.

Canada has huge potential to become a high-tech super power. But to do that, it has to start respecting intellectual capital of immigrants.

I've found that despite all the multicultural 'talk' in Canada, the average Canadian and the average Canadian business is still very inward looking. I can't even think of ten companies out of Canada that have invested in India. Look at Telus, Bell, Shaw or Rogers. They are all sitting pretty here enjoying the cocoon that Canadian government has created for them.

At the individual level, labor markets are becoming increasingly global. So if someone has the competence, they will command a huge wage irrespective of location. If this trend is not apparent at this point, but it will become clear in coming years. The days of getting a higher wage simply based on geographical location are coming to an end. There are exceptions in regulated professions such as medicine and law, but we have already seen rise of medical tourism to counter such trends.

BL ~ There are countries where citizens are pampered by the Govt - Middle East is one such region and US another where citizens fare better than their counterparts elsewhere . In Canada we get a better deal then ppl get in India . But thats digressing from my concerns so I will hit back on the road ..

Economy in a nut shell : Imports , Production , Consumption , Exports

Out of these consumption is more of a constant , what make difference are the other three . Higher the exports and production better the economy ... lesser the imports better the economy .

China & India are developing economies built on Exports ... With the new order of the WTO trade is more free than before and production / services are getting shifted to lower cost producing countries . No denying abt Jap / German quality but they cant beat the cost effectiveness.

China & India are able to provide the output as the cost of living in these countries is less and $1 or @ 10 / day can make an average person sustain v/s his Western counterpart who buys a bread for $2/- ( as opposed to 20 cents in India ) ...... Chinese due to the language barrier are more restricted in their country and live with the low wage rates ... There s no indication that things would change .

And as these countries earn more money , technology would be just another resource they will acquire and add on more to the kitty ........ Why is there a cry in US / UK / Aus against Indian outsourcing ... much for the same reasons .

Canada may enjoy an abundance of resources but is it able to capitalize on Immigrant intellect as wanderer has indicated ?? No .... coz despite the intellect the production and services are shifting elsewhere ..........

I am not sure myself what the current situation is and what holds for in the future but yes , pre emptive measures need to be taken both at collective and individual levels and effort has to be made to turn the balance in Canada s favor.

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Fido.

I agree with your assessments of the market/economy and the need to recognize the vast human talent that immigrates to Canada every year.

However why is it all about getting "the higher wage"? Is it all about the dollar? what about quality of work life/better mental health etc that can result for people that work in jobs that allow them to feel productive, self esteem, a feeling that they contribute to society etc?

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~ Morning rain