Why shd nt an OCI or for that reason a dual citizen be alowed to vote ? Why are loyalties under question in case of a dual citizen ..... is he expected to vote in the category India v/s Canada ??
For that reason why does UN (read US) has a say in who s to do what in this world despite not being nationals of that country .
I feel there s no harm in allowing dual citizens to vote as their loyalties in this case are not a question .
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Fido.
Posts: 456
Location: Canada-Glorious and Free
Posted on: 08-12-06 14:37:56
Location: Canada-Glorious and Free
Posted on: 08-12-06 14:37:56
Quote:
Originally posted by Fido
Why shd nt an OCI or for that reason a dual citizen be alowed to vote ? Why are loyalties under question in case of a dual citizen ..... is he expected to vote in the category India v/s Canada ??
For that reason why does UN (read US) has a say in who s to do what in this world despite not being nationals of that country .
I feel there s no harm in allowing dual citizens to vote as their loyalties in this case are not a question .
To be loyal means you are devoted to one thing or person at the exclusion of others. It is a concept of exclusivity. In simple terms, it means you cannot have your cake and eat it too. So if you want to keep your cake, then you cannot eat it. And if you want to eat your cake, you cannot keep it.
For example, I am loyal to XYZ Paan shop. I cannot also be loyal to ABC paan shop. And if you think you are, then by definition, you are not really loyal to either.
Another example. I cannot be loyal to my wife if I am also loyal to someone else's wife. If that were the case, I would not be loyal to either of the wives!
So your conclusion -
Quote:
I feel there s no harm in allowing dual citizens to vote as their loyalties in this case are not a question.
is flawed. Their loyalty is questionable. I have gone as far as accusing folks with dual-citizenry of being immoral. Finally I have to say that I would not want such a person living in Russia (or wherever else) to cast a vote based on their narrow judgment.
I present a case for your consumption. Say a hopeful party leader promised not to tax foreign incomes but shut down all social programs. Guess where the votes from foreign based Canadians would go? Is that what we, resident Canadians would want?
BV
Quote:
Originally posted by Big Vee
Another example. I cannot be loyal to my wife if I am also loyal to someone else's wife. If that were the case, I would not be loyal to either of the wives!
I do agree with the gist of the argument that you are making( when put in context of hypocritical objections by desis against Dions citizenship) but I should point out that Canada is called 'motherland' not 'wifeland' or 'spouseland'
.One CAN be loyal to a father and a mother and other members of the family as long as the family is the unit in the childs mind. Both the mother and father shape the identity of the child. Unlike you BigVee, this is the situation most of the dual-citizens probably find themselves in. I western countries its not rare to find children loyal to father ,mother, step-father and step mother. How well an individual manages these relationships is relative to the strength of his/her character.
Yes there maybe situations like in a divorce that the child MAY be put in the situation to choose one over the other. You and I both know its the child that loses in such a case.
Anyway, Canada has already had a dual-citizen prime minister in John Turner. He was born in England.
Dion got his French citizenship via his mother(a french citizen).
Surveys indicate that the Tories would lose a snap election due to support for Dion and the libs, since his leadership.
In short, expect this citizenship issue to become bigger while the tories try to capitalize on it.
My view is that Dion will end up giving up his french citizenship.
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Big Vee,
I somewhat agree that loyalties are absolute .... although this horse has been beaten to death in another thread 
But where does the question of loyalties arise in case of dual citizens voting in Canada . Are they expect to vote - India v/s Canada ?? If that is not the case and the Dual Citizen is living in Canada then why should he not have the right of choosing his Government . By being a dual citizen his loyalty towards Canada is not being questioned as he is primarily a Canadian citizen .
Taking this even forward to a person being an equal citizen of both the US and Canada ....... why shd nt he be allowed to participate in both the countries' electorate as long as his casting a vote in one is deterimintal to the other s interest .
Your argument would be more understandable if the vote was in between Canada and the other country then yes...... the person would have divided loyalties ...........
Kindly explain if I m reading smthing wrong here . But yes the equation would change if the same person is running for some public office ..... if thats the case then I am afraid I misinterpreted the thread .
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Fido.
Quote:
Originally posted by Fido
But yes the equation would change if the same person is running for some public office .....
Why would it change? Arent people voting a party for both its foreign and national policy?
e.g (from recent history): If a voter votes for a pro iraq war involvement govt. Or a voter voting for a pro-israel govt.
Note: Ingnatief's stand vis-a-vis Israel was one of the reasons for his downfall even at the party level.
Similarly, Harpers pro-israel stand will cost him in terms of votes from the arab voters in quebec who voted for him.
In either of above cases the pro-Israeli and pro-Arab citizens of Canada can argue that its in best interests for Canada to be aligned in either direction. If these citizens are dual citizens their votes will influence Canadian foreign policy.
Surely a conflict of interest at the level of the voters will only manifest itself in the way they vote and who is elected into public office. So the question again is...since the voters(including dual-citizens) are deciding on foreign policy of Canada why can dual-citizens not run for public office?
All these maybe moot points since, legally, a dual citizen CAN run for and hold public office in Canada. This policy only seems to move forward the concept of 'one world without boundaries', unlike the jingoistic reasoning of most conservative/nationalistic thought in any country...including US, Canada and India.
'Nationalistic patriotism' like its sister 'religion', gives rise to the abhorrent levels of fanaticism if given enough fertile ground.
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Posts: 456
Location: Canada-Glorious and Free
Posted on: 10-12-06 01:24:23
Location: Canada-Glorious and Free
Posted on: 10-12-06 01:24:23
Quote:
Originally posted by Fido
Big Vee,
I somewhat agree that loyalties are absolute .... although this horse has been beaten to death in another thread
But where does the question of loyalties arise in case of dual citizens voting in Canada . Are they expect to vote - India v/s Canada ?? If that is not the case and the Dual Citizen is living in Canada then why should he not have the right of choosing his Government . By being a dual citizen his loyalty towards Canada is not being questioned as he is primarily a Canadian citizen .
Taking this even forward to a person being an equal citizen of both the US and Canada ....... why shd nt he be allowed to participate in both the countries' electorate as long as his casting a vote in one is deterimintal to the other s interest .
Your argument would be more understandable if the vote was in between Canada and the other country then yes...... the person would have divided loyalties ...........
Kindly explain if I m reading smthing wrong here . But yes the equation would change if the same person is running for some public office ..... if thats the case then I am afraid I misinterpreted the thread .
Fido,
In your first paragraph you say that you somewhat agree with absolute loyalty. In the next paragraph you say dual citizenship is not questioned because the person is living in Canada.
To be a citizen of a country is to pledge loyalty to that country. A dual citizen, no matter where they live or what countries are involved, is not loyal to either of the countries.
You asked a question about US-Canadian dual citizen. I have provided a hypothetical case already which is still applicable
Quote:
I present a case for your consumption. Say a hopeful party leader promised not to tax foreign incomes but shut down all social programs. Guess where the votes from foreign based Canadians would go? Is that what we, resident Canadians would want?
But here is another. More specific to the US-Canadian dual citizen. Say there are rumours that the US will initiate the draft for the war in Iraq unless other allies join the war. The dual citizen living in Alabama will look for any candidate in the Canadian election that supports the war in Iraq. Why? To save himself, his kids, his neighbour from being drafted. You see that the dual citizen is not voting directly in a US vs Canada scenario. But he still has divided loyalty.
You use the words divided loyalties. To me, there is only loyalty and conflicting agendas. And yes, you can have conflicting agendas (divided loyalties) even when you are not voting directly against each other.
In effect, by allowing Canadians to hold another citizenship, you are diluting policy decisions in Canada. As Jake3D pointed out, those Canadian voters (dual citizens) could be living in Lebanon, Syria, Russia or where ever else. And because of their biased / narrow / limited views, we end up with policy that is questionable.
BV
Quote:
Originally posted by Big Vee
To be a citizen of a country is to pledge loyalty to that country. A dual citizen, no matter where they live or what countries are involved, is not loyal to either of the countries.
Big Vee , this can be your personal belief not applying to all .
Quote:
But here is another. More specific to the US-Canadian dual citizen. Say there are rumours that the US will initiate the draft for the war in Iraq unless other allies join the war. The dual citizen living in Alabama will look for any candidate in the Canadian election that supports the war in Iraq. Why? To save himself, his kids, his neighbour from being drafted. You see that the dual citizen is not voting directly in a US vs Canada scenario. But he still has divided loyalty.
You use the words divided loyalties. To me, there is only loyalty and conflicting agendas. And yes, you can have conflicting agendas (divided loyalties) even when you are not voting directly against each other.
BV
Not necassarily , I think there can be a conflict b/w a person s loyalties and principles .... many US / UK citizens oppose the Iraq war and would vote against any such Govt .... do they have divided loyalties .... I presume not . They cant trade their loyalty for their principles .
Maybe the US Candian citizen may try and effort stopping a calamity by using his dual citizenship right.... Ultimately it is the principles which take preceedence .
I do agree that person voting in a country should not be a deserter as is the case in most of us Indians ... we left our country for better pastures .... if we live there for even 5 months a year , it shows that we associate ourselves with india and have a fair right to vote .....
Jake ,
I feel that there s a difference in commitment from a voter and an elected representative in any office .... the elected representative cannot and should not sit outside and decide about the country s policies .... hw would not be able to devote himself enough ......... and then his onus of divided loyalties is much higher than a normal voter's.
Having said that I feel that even if a person has dual citizenship but is primarily a resident of one country , he should have a fair chance to be elected ...
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Fido.
